Makes you feel real good that our military heros are fighting for these finger waving morons to have the right to protest, doesn’t it?

The aim of Republican strategy has been a Republican Party that permanently runs the United States and a United States that permanently runs the world. The two aims have been driven by a common purpose: to steadily and irreversibly increase and consolidate power in GOP hands, leading in the direction of a one-party state at home and a global American empire abroad.

The most critical question has been whether American democracy, severely eroded but still breathing, would bring down the Republican machine, or whether the Republican machine—call it the budding one-party global empire—would bring down American democracy.

As happened in the Vietnam era, the war came home. This Republican administration’s disrespect for law has led to law-breaking. Somehow, the law-enforcement system in and around the Justice Department has retained enough independence to serve as a check on abuses of executive power. Indictments have been brought, and others are likely to follow.

The mechanisms whereby the foreign debacle has led to the domestic setbacks for the Administration are complex, but the broad outlines are already clear: The failed empire, in the shape of its failed war, has driven down the President’s support to the point at which others, cowed until now, feel free to attack him.

The institutions of government and the economy, drawn like iron filings into the magnetic field of power, failed at first to check the Administration. But the public, represented by opinion polls, has stepped in, and the institutions are following. Not since the Soviet Union fell fourteen years ago have we witnessed a greater reversal of fortune.

Hmm, Just Me…I can’t say it makes me feel any better that they’re also fighting for “morons” who can’t even spell “heroes”, but whatever. I suppose you’d prefer that our men in uniform fight for a country in which freedom of speech is limited and those who wish to dissent against the government’s policies are intimidated and/or pummeled into silence. Too bad this is America. You would be so much happier in Saddam’s Iraq.

I seriously doubt that “Just Me” prefers freedom of speech be further limited. It is a far stretch to conclude that from the post. It is an even further stretch to compare the second Bush Administration to the USSR or to suggest the GOP prefers a Hussein-like reign of terror. Why do Bush detractors constantly compare him to being “worse than Nazi Germany” or fascist in any way? He is using the same Reagan-era non-conventional war tactics that won the Cold War, kicked Saddam out of Kuwait and eventually toppled his reign of terror. It is obviously disingenuous to compare Bush to the enemy he fights or the enemy his mentors fought. If we had listened to Liberals more than 14 years ago, we would still be living under the threat of Soviet ICBMs. According to Kerry, the Iraqi elections couldn’t have worked and all those protesters would have been drafted by now…further pointing out the flawed nature of liberal strategies for conflict resolution. Years from now Bush will be buried with a hero’s funeral, just like Reagan was…despite previous Liberal insistence that both their administrations were the most fool hearted, corrupt and dishonest to date.
“Just Me? was simply pointing out where the real work of our generation is being done. Not by the needlessly vulgar protesters, but by the soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen protecting America from further attack and protecting their very right to flip off the Commander in Chief.

Bereft of any ideas, the liberals are reduced to blocking traffic and making obscene gestures. I’m glad CNN aired it (although I regret if children were viewing). I hope this behavior is exposed as much as possible; every time they reveal their true nature, the moonbats lose support. Thanks for posting it.

Nothing is black and white, especially the use of the terms conservative and liberal.
I am a conservative who strongly disagrees with the current administration and has seen this country make many very bad mistakes since 9/11, which I believe (though I know others will prove) was an “inside” job.
That people gestured with a finger will not be seen by Bush, who is protected from American dissention to his foolish moves by not being anywhere near them. He doesn’t even read, remember. I think we have a moron for president and some of us are following him like blind sheep. This war on ‘terror’ is a joke when it is we who are terrorizing them. Our boys don’t belong in Iraq. They are not defending us from terror. These actions are just creating more hatred for a despised country that imposed an illegal and immoral war on a nation and killed over 100,000 innocent people. The soldiers don’t want to be there, either. There is no point anymore to what we are doing. There is no victory in murder and mayhem.

FalconBobby mused, “Why do Bush detractors constantly compare him to being “worse than Nazi Germany? or fascist in any way?”

To which I hasten to reply that, if it walks like a duck, squawks like a duck, and so on, then likely it’s a duck … in this particular case, a dry-drunk duck in a state of denial.

FalconBobby mused, “Why do Bush detractors constantly compare him to being ‘worse than Nazi Germany’ or fascist in any way?”

To which I hasten to reply that, if it walks like a duck, squawks like a duck, and so on, then likely it’s a duck … in this particular case, a dry-drunk duck in a state of denial.

• This war on ‘terror’ is a joke when it is we who are terrorizing them. Our boys don’t belong in Iraq. They are not defending us from terror. These actions are just creating more hatred for a despised country that imposed an illegal and immoral war on a nation and killed over 100,000 innocent people. The soldiers don’t want to be there, either. There is no point anymore to what we are doing. There is no victory in murder and mayhem.

*

This is just amazing. First, youre a conservative? Sorry thats hard to believe. If you were conservative? You would know why we are having the war, and would point out the DNC and liberal spin machine invented the points you cite in fantasy. They repeat them on news shows and elsewhere.

Its a massive insult to this great president and staff who have set people free. Iraqis want us there, soldiers from the US, my family and friends who are serving, want to be there.

It reminds me of the Cindy Sheehan debacle, MOST US soldiers want me to remind Cindy: “Cindy, you Dont speak for us”

Let’s face the facts. Iraq was a bad idea. After coercing bad intelligence from NSA and CIA we formed a coillition of the willing (no one but Britain) and put our troops in harms way for oil and to destabilize the region. IRAQ is unwinable because Bush didn’t have the presence of mind to empathize with his enemy, like any good general would. Now we have opened up Pandoras box and created many more loyal funamentalists. Our war on terror is going as well as our war on drugs. Both unwinable. Unless you own stock in defense companies or big pharma. Like Bush does. Isn’t it a little unethical to make money off a war you started. IRAQ=Vietnam
I bet they plan there lunches better than this war. The will be remembered as the group that spent all of the money trying to prove our brand of god is better than thier brand of god. It’s ponderous who stupid this guy really is. I hope we get another bridge building president in office to bring the world togther instead of the money whores we have in power today. Republicans sacked the surplus cash and drug us into an unwinable war. Take your god and stick him up your ass you fasist, imperialist money whore, war mongers.
“A presidents primary responsibility is to keep his country out of war” Kennedy a real president.

Kvetch, kvetch, kvetch…

I have a hard time finding anything rational in “ghost-” or “cynlee’s comments. It’s truly amazing: they truly are in another reality, like algore.
The idea that Republicans have a deep, dark desire to rule the world, boggles the mind. The major reason the republicans have won control of congress and the white house is the absence of any ideas or leadership from democrats. The democrats anbandoned the cold war back in the 70’s, then did their level best to sabotage Reagan’s plan to win it. That moral sewer Clinton encouraged a populist oxymoronic third party to divide the opposition while he lied about almost everything to win less than half the vote in both elections. One of the reasons no democrat today is a leader is that they are all tainted by defending that slimeball; nor does Bill want any competition. The opposition to Bush, just for opposition’s sake, is so short sighted, the democrats are obviously nearly blind with hate. Democrats like ghost- and cynlee offer nothing but insults or pathetic conspiracy theories; any constructive ideas would earn them a honest hearing, but after 21/2 years I’m deaf to their rants. The only democrat senator with any backbone is Lieberman, but how many democrats or liberals pay any attention to him?
If the war is truly unpopular why did all but the wackiest demcrats in the house vote against the resolution? The fact that Hillary refuses to criticize the war the way the anti-war wacko’s want her to says volumes about what real, accurate, opinion polls tell those who want a shot at 2008. Lincoln’s popularity in ‘63-’64 was real low too.
Regarding Vietnam, I seem to recall it was started by democrats; did JFK and LBJ and all their friends have a deep dark plan to take over the world on behalf of the democratic party?
I have watched the democratic party of FDR, Harry Truman and JFK destroy itself; yet I see no evidence of anyone of its leaders taking resposibility to point out, as Pogo did; “we have met the enemy, and he is us”. Bizarre, far out Liberals like ‘ghost-’ and ‘cynlee’ (I don’t see one iota of any evidence she’s conservative) will continue to lead the democrats into defeat. Don’t blame the republicans or conservatives for the void of ideas and leadership that used to be the democratic party. If the USA is the world’s only current superpower, and the republicans the elected party in power, whose fault is that? Fortunately, for the g&c’s of the world, the adults, like republicans and conservatives and George W Bush in particular, are in charge.
We are changing the world in the middle east, for the far better future so many in Iraq can see, which is why they are actively pursuing a new democratic Iraq. I am a National Guardsman who expects to go to the middle east in the next two years, and look forward to helping build part of that future.

The problem with the defending our freedoms argument is that our freedoms aren’t in way endangered by Iraq in the first place. Nobody would be absurd enough to believe they could in anyway muster an invasion force and topple the US government, which is the only plausible way that a foreign power can actually endanger US freedoms.

No, the real danger to US freedoms comes when politicians chose to strip away American Constititional freedoms, usually by explaining it’s necessity to fight some foreign power. Looking past throughout history, the few democracies that have been destroyed have always been done so in this manner (read the ‘History of Peloponessian War’ for a good account of one instance of this happening).

Most wars are usually started with the intention of freeing some foreign nation from tyranny either real or imagined, but most democracies have usually been created from internal pressure just as they usually likewise have been destroyed from internal pressure.

Even in the rare instances when democratic change has been forced from the outside, it has been on a country that formerly has had a democractic tradition at some time in the remembered past, has an educated populance and an ethnically homogenous population that has a reason to work together, and even then the occupies had to show some serious respect towards the vanquished people and their traditions for any change to occur. In other words, all the factors that aren’t present in Iraq, and the reason why being there is neither our freedom or freedoms of the people overseas. Instead we just have one form of tyranny replace the other, or is anyone ok with the following happening in the ‘democratic’ Iraq:
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/13277769.htm

So in summary, our overseas adventures can only endanger our freedoms as politicians take for granted human rights in a increasing war-like black or white mentality where anything is justifible to order to win and anyone who questions our methods is unpatriotic and thus can be classified as an enemy that’s harming our soldiers. The military does provide a necessary function of any government, but our freedoms are ultimately in the hands of the people themselves, including those making obscene comments at White House officials.

“Not since the Soviet Union fell fourteen years ago have we witnessed a greater reversal of fortune.” – Ghost Dansing

That’s “reversal of misfortune” the purged corpses might say, had the USSR not killed them.

One-party state? Histrionic hysteria – 1st propaganda tool of the liberal. Like the 30-year, one-party government that was trashed by Bile Clinton desecrating the office and turning the tender U.S. underbelly towards budding terrorists?
Sore losers ALWAYS defame the conquerors, tagging walls and posting sites. Indeed, the “mechanisms whereby…” Ha!

“Our boys don’t belong in Iraq. They are not defending us from terror. These actions are just creating more hatred for a despised country that imposed an illegal and immoral war on a nation and killed over 100,000 innocent people. The soldiers don’t want to be there, either. There is no point anymore to what we are doing. There is no victory in murder and mayhem.” cynlee (or Sinly)

These are the same shallow, unresearched viewpoints that led us to cowardly retreat in Vietnam. World politics is an amoral game of pure force and intimidation, especially with respect to the backwards middle east. Fumble in weakness and the jackals come to finish you off. Simple law of the jungle. Forget it and you learn its veracity just before the curtain falls.

“...empathize with his enemy, like any good general would.” -darrylhardhead

This, I think is a quote from the new book: New Age Self-defeat – Learning to Love the Enemy that Kills You.

Kennedy is a great example: That invalid who nearly initiated nuclear war 90 miles off the coast of Florida. Had the USSR not backed down, it would have happened.

Let’s empathize with those who wish to behead us, and who also kill their daughters when they are raped, to preserve tribal family honor. We’re the favored underdogs: the carpenter’s religion against the pedarist conqueror’s religion. It’s like Rocky IX, imperialist money whore poor writer!

Thanks for the dose of sanity, Lord of Karma. It’s often in scant supply here, where generalities and platitudes flow like water. You can freeze thousands of frames from CNN to prove any point you want. It’s a silly game. Besides, the guy’s finger appears preternaturally long, and I’m wondering if it’s been photoshopped.

For Democrats, Iraq stopped being a threat to our Freedom the second Bush’s intentions became clear. All during Clinton’s years it was a serious, growing threat that could hurt America within months…and a threat that required direct intervention. Direct statements from Clinton and many other major Democrats to these ends are currently largely ignored by the mainstream media.

Also, about the continuing comparisons between the current American goverment and past Fascist states… When was the last time an American was imprisoned or “disappeared” for expressing anti-administration views?

To anyone who might want to make some far reaching comparison between fascist control and our treatment of POWs. Please check out the law of armed conflict and the rules for armed combatants captured while not in uniform. Also check out the rules on perfidy and identifying legal targets, which our enemies continually break. If this were WWII, these “enemy combatants” would be shot on site as spies or for having invalidated their own protections as legal combatants…
instead of being “tortured” less severely than frat boy initations.
I still see not the slightest indication that Bush is a fascist.
Anyone who makes such a comparison must not truly understand history, the freedom of speech or the law of armed conflict or must in their heart of hearts realize that they are not being intellectually honest when they make such a statement and try to pass it off as if it is an obvious truth.

This is so cool. Just today, Reuters and AP - you know, those liberal-owned and operated MSM wire serices – also ran a picture that made Cindy Sheehan look bad (http://tinyurl.com/bwama). Was this an act of wingnuttery? Of conservative bias? Of course not. it’s just busy journalists, maybe being dumb or careless, but not conspiratorial or evil. They make conservatives and liberals look good sometimes, bad at other times. Get real.

I love this line
“Nobody would be absurd enough to believe they could in anyway muster an invasion force and topple the US government”
You know History is always the place one should look when making a comment like it. I can think of a small country that was battered and broken. At the time the world powers were imposing heavy sanctions on it, they were poor and the world comunity restricted them from forming any sizable military. But as time goes on enforcing these things takes money and people stop looking, and don’t want to comit the resources it takes to keep a close eye on a country (even a small one). It did not take long till they grew to the point that they became a threat. Said country was post WWI Germany and they grew very fast from nothing, and almost took control of a large part of the world in WWII. So when you say a small country could never rize to be a superpower keep in mind the short amount of time they did it in. Reguardless of the fact that we have been paying money to enforce a nofly zone in iraq for 12 years.

The Cindy photo is really funny. The fact that she gets any attention at all is where the bias lies. How many pro-Bush mothers or anti-Clinton mothers have been ignored?
By the way, I disagree with 888999 about not needing a “cowardly retreat” from Vietnam. The rules of engagement needed to be changed years before detante was finally reached, for the US to have had any chance at victory. Especially concerning the use of Air Power. But it was a good lesson for us to learn.
Also, I agree with Darryl Hardin that the war on drugs is ridiculous.
However, the war on drugs is a moral battle we suddenly chose to fight. The war against terrorism slapped us on the face on 9-11-03. Not much of an analogy there.

“A presidents primary responsibility is to keep his country out of war? Kennedy a real president.

Two words for that quote – Viet Nam. darrylhardin, check your history first.

Lord of Karma

You will eventually come to see that our taking of Iraq is a brilliant strategic move into the heart of Arab land. A base of operations for attacking Syria and Iran, both of which have grown ever more tyrannical and pro-Israel-elimination during the Democrats’ rule of the U.S., which post-Reagan, has virtually assured the world of our impotence – even if we did take sides with the Muslims in Kosovo, Bosnia, Desert Storm, etc. – perhaps yet more misleading signs of weakness or foolishness (the Arabs can’t understand us not utterly decimating our and their enemies when something short of that allows some peace – key psychological difference between the cultures, and perhaps a measure of psychological evolution.

Every civilized nation is at risk when Islamic fundamentalism is allowed to branch into suicide-bombing militarism in any country. Read about the history of the Mukabaharat (sic) in Iraq, and you will understand why toppling Iraq to end only that murderous organization would have been noble reason enough. Global Murder, Inc. it was.

And then we will ultimately deal with the thriving source of imperialistic, fascist Islamism – Wahabbi Saudi Arabia. Wahabbism is the source spring of the entire ideology animating Arab anti-Americanism, global jihad, martyrdom, and the dream of a contemporary Caliphate after the loss of the Turkish one.

Correction 9-11-01
Had my graduation year stuck in my mind for some reason

Invading Iraq was certainly far less than brilliant. There were no acts of terrorism against the US in Iraq before we invaded. I agree with the idea that when the strong attack the weak, there is no victory and the strong become the weak. The real terrorism is the fear that the current administration heaps on us with the idea that we will be under attack until we defeat the occupied fighters of Iraq. These are Iraqis now who are fighting us determined to remove us from their soil. Remember this was Bin Laden’s original raison d’etre for attacking the US in the first place.
Nothing is won by instilling fear in our hears or destroying a sovereign countries people and infrastructure; a country whose leader was supported by the US when it suited our needs. The current US administration is the “bully” of the world, the country deserving of the most distrust and calumny. If I disappear from the face of the earth any time soon, it will be because the KGB of the US has taken me hostage. Oh the wonderful glory of being American in today’s world where any free citizen living in this ‘democratic’ society can be thrown into jail just because the president declares it or doesn’t like you. God help America!

Next, Iraq is a lot like Viet Nam in one way in particular. (Yes, I am a conservative Christian Republican.) It is similar because, we, the US military is kicking the crap out of the insurgents. Including the casualties to our Iraqi Security Forces and British allies, the casualty ratio is staggerring. I would certainly rather be US, British or Iraqi than an insurgent, Baathist or foreign. The population is overwhelmingly in favor of making the new government work.

Do the Iraqis want us out? Sure, but not until they can defend themselves. After the end of the War of 1812 did we want the French out? Sure, but not until we were sure the British weren’t coming back.

Back to the parallels of the Iraq War to the Viet Nam War. We are winning. Of this there is ZERO doubt by those on the ground. Look who is running and who is recruiting more people. Are there more recruits to the Iraqi Security Forces or to the insurgents? Is is more dangerous to be an insurgent or a US ally (hint: the survival percentages dramatically favor the allies). 10 million people voted in the last election while the estimate is that there are 10 thousand insurgents. This is not rocket science.

The only way we will lose is if the US folk back home lose stomach for helping the budding democratic republic in Iraq.

Finally, back to the guy with the middle finger.

People who oppose this war based on the 2100 American deaths of soldiers (including accidents) are in my opinion isolationists. I hope they are not provincial biggots. The would stand by and watch atrocities happen because they are happening to those Iraqis. They would allow a proud and good poeple to be ruled by force and threat of death rather than act.

It wasn’t one rape or murder that they would stand by and watch. It is hundreds of thousands. There is hard eveidence of this. Since we can use the lack of evidence of WMDs in perfect hindsight, perhaps we should use the evidence of state sponsored murder, mutualation and rape with equal clarity of hindsight.

These people are human and good. There lives are not worth less than ours. They want to help themselves. They are worthy of our help, and even worthy of our blood.

(yes, I am tired of the argument that since we didn’t help in Darfur, that we shouldn’t help anywhere. Maybe, eventually, we can help in Darfur.)

You folk that support the war. Why aren’t you lining up down at the military recruiting centers??? Seems your grandfathers supported America’s war against Japanese agression by actually enlisting and fighting.

But, you support the war by tieing your ribbons, buying your bumper stickers, waving your flags, and spouting useless rhetoric on the internet.

Buddy with the finger is DOING something to support his beliefs… practicing civil disobedience. Read about Ghandi or the Civil Rights movement sometime.

So, support the war? Go fight it. That’s the support the troops over there want.

There were no acts of terrorism against the US in Iraq before we invaded. I agree with the idea that when the strong attack the weak, there is no victory and the strong become the weak. The real terrorism is the fear that the current administration heaps on us with the idea that we will b

What do you know of the history of Iraq? Sorry but probably nothing at all.

According to you, Iraq was peaceful, stable and “nice”. Saddam was a regular leader, no mass murders, no mass graves or torture chambers or wmd experimentation?

To even claim the Iraq war was not necessary, comes from either being totally ignorant of reality; or, being a terrorist sympathizer. There is no other possibility.

Then you go on to claim the real terrorism is coming from the Bush admin. Wow. So for setting millions of Iraqi people free, Bush is a bad guy…

For telling you, Cynlee that yes 9/11 actually happened? Bush is lying about terrorism. come on, do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

Its not so bad that ANTI war types are saying the war is bad. But what reasons are they using?? huh? hmm? What makes the war in Iraq a “bad thing” ???

Then usually the same list in different order.

Now here is the kicker, did these anti war protesters think this stuff up? NO. They quote the same thing because they/you heard the same thing from select people. Like Ramsey Clark, an American traitor who preaches the destruction of the US, who defends terrorists AGAINST the USA, who invents zany traitorous rhetoric…

Like Saddam was under control; Saddam was not a threat to the USA; Saddam was a pawn used by republicans; Saddam never had wmd; President Bush lied about wmd, lied about yellow cake uranium, lied about the global threat… I can list them all.

2 problems, they are not based in truth, have no truth and cover up the truth? But they also come from a traitor who openly admits his treason.

You anti war types who quote Ramsey Clark or Noam Chomsky (an admitted socialist anti American) because they target naive young adults, around college age who want to be mad at something, and basically offer you candy to get into their car? They only spread their lies when young people take the bait.

“so… like… you mean Bush or whatever is like the real terrorist? OMG that is like so incredible, someone should like do something or have him fired…”

You folk that support the war. Why aren’t you lining up down at the military recruiting centers??? Seems your grandfathers supported America’s war against Japanese agression by actually enlisting and fighting.

No, there was a DRAFT!!

It wasnt no choice in WW2 (the big one), you’s had to get drafted unless you’s was sick with TB or was one of them “twinkle toes” kind, you know what I mean.

I know or knew people who were running Japanese detention camps in the 1940s and knowing what went on? I support what took place then.

Ivan, my grandfather fought one day for the Nazis on the Eastern front before he was wounded. I happen to be an American, fighting in the forces which guard our country and our way of life. One other poster ID’d himself as a Reservist and another also ID’d himself as an active duty soldier. For most of us, serving our country has been a life-long passion. I hope to never have to use my combat skills to kill our enemies, but I stand ready and I continually volunteer to be placed in harms way. When I eventually retire from the military, I hope to continue public service. Where do you get your intense connection with the “troops over there?” Most of us just want continued public support and to be allowed to do our jobs. When the opposition party has opposed every single decision made by our senior leadership for the past 3 years, it becomes very difficult to believe it is out of a sense of “patriotism” and not motivated by political opportunism cashed in at the expense of our military efforts.
Flipping off the CIC is perfectly acceptable…but like I said before…the real work of our generation is being done by my brothers and sisters in arms.

Yes what a wonderful nation where people can speak out in protest of the leadership. Where else would this be tolerated? In the largest abuser of human rights, China, anyone who opposes hardline communist leaders? dies, thats it, done.

Here, people protest and burn the flag. flipping off the CiC will earn the guy $millions in interviews with leftist news groups, he will get some pizza from Michael Moore and a big hug, he may even get a spot on late night tv or more.

People who stop Naval ships from transporting materiel to troops, because they protest the war? They deserve to be run over, they cross the line and raise weapons against the US military or stand ready to fight physically? cross that line from free speech to physically stopping or interfering with the US military? face the consequences.

FalconBobby… by being in uniform, you are indeed embracing the concept that you are willing to support your views of the war by actually doing something.

Only history will ultimately determine whether any national endeavor ended up being right or wrong. But regardless, your views are supported by your actions, which makes you honorable in my books.

As far as the CIC is concerned, I need to bite my lip over the fact that such a hawkish president had such an embarassing military record when it was his turn to step up to the plate in a by-gone national endeavor. Hypocrasy is very high on my rant list.

Bradley26… you sound like somebody who proudly supports freedom of expression as long as that expression matches what you believe.

You either support freedom of expression, or you don’t. Many conservatives seem to be entirely confused about the true implementation of that concept.

I have a request for you peace hicks
making comments on here and the ones in the street, if you want peace so bad then go to iraq and stand in the x fire between all the military troops fighting the terrorist that will sure give you the peace that you desire.

Question for all moonbats and moonbat supports.which country do you want the islam murders to cut your head off in america, or iraq because they will please you in either place. vietnam vet with a son in iraq.

Ivan, like I clearly said, freedom of speech is what makes America great (or one thing anyway)

And I endorse everyones right to free speech. I also said that if you dont do your homework, but parrot what traitors like Ramsey Clark (leading moveon.org and other groups) are saying? it doesnt help you, it EMBARASSES you.

Its not me saying oh, you must say what I want to hear?? not at all. Im so smart, Im so experienced in current events and am so familiar with the liberal MSM that I can see where the quotes are coming from.

Take any point about the Iraq war. Now do some research on it for a few months and study details. You will find, I guarantee, Bush made the correct choices and never lied about anything.

You will find leftist organizers planting lies. Now if you find some organizer who is wrong, and you say hey will you apologize for that? and they say no? then?

The moonbats remind me of muhammad ,
when he had to flee mecca in 622 to
prevent them from killing him for pushing his propaganda.

Just to clarify, I’m not a peacenik. I supported the first Gulf War, the incursion into Afhganistan.

I’m the son of a 25 year vet, and support the military in many ways although my choice has been to remain a civilian.

Sometimes “peace” is as simple as not throwing the first punch. Iraq is about oil, Haliburton, and “Daddy’s unfinished business”, not 9/11.

With all due respect Brick, the sooner your son is safely home, the better. They’ve been fighting for 2000 years over there. What do you think this little adventure is going to accomplish???

I also don’t support the occupation of land in souvereign foreign countries without their consent, such as Gitmo.

Wasn’t 1776 about being against “imperialism”???

According to Bush, it’s just “a one-fingered victory salute”:

http://homepage.mac.com/knarley/iblog/B1286550043/C15364514/E875914640/

Does that make him a moonbat?

The moonbats always use propaganda ,to reinforce the mindset of people who already believe as the propagandist.
Mr ivan your comment ,,, I also don,t support the occupation of land in souvereign foreign countries with out their consent, such as gito, no one of us is lost here and I do believe that it is you do some research. my friend.

Research? Gitmo? I’ve been there, and a whole lot of other countries in Europe and Central Asia. Both in a professional capacity, and personally. I’ve lived aboard for a number of years.

Don’t have a discussion with me by attacking my level of knowledge, since you have absolutely no way of knowing that.

Please, sir. Present your views and counterpoints to mine. That is honorable debate, which must be done in a free society.

So, why is the US in Gitmo? Your view.

Also, if you don’t mind. You’re a Vietnam Vet? So, what do you think of the CIC’s record during that time period? You accord him the respect to now command your son to do things he was not willing to do himself.

I’m here to learn your views, not just present my own.

When fingers fly, traffic spikes

Ian Schwartz has been linked on Drudge (“FINGERS FLY ON CNN…”—with a picture, no less), and his server seems unable to handle what is obviously a huge spike in traffic. I can’t open it, so this post will…

1776 was about a buncha of white slave-holding landowners who didn’t want to pay their taxes.

Just kidding. But if you expect anything coherent from Brick, you obiovusly haven’t been around this blog much.

reinzi winchester said, “The idea that Republicans have a deep, dark desire to rule the world, boggles the mind.”

These are the people controlling your Republican party:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

“The Project for the New American Century is a non-profit educational organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American leadership is good both for America and for the world; and that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle.”

Sticking out your middle finger shows a lack of intelligence does it?

http://images.google.com/images?rls=en&q=bush%20finger

Flipping off W. is like telling Cheney to go f*** himself. You’re speaking their language.

Somehow I can’t see another war president, FD Roosevelt doing that.

http://joebardi.blogspot.com

7 days till joe’s 30th birthday!

With 47 post now I am not sure if its worth poasting any else because I personally lost interest in blog topics after 20 posts.

Not sure how many of you people picked up on Ghost Dansing (second from the first post) plagiarism. Its word for word from a piece by Jonatha Schell called, “The Fall of the One-Party Empire”

– http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20051212&s=schell

As the man in the picture I have a few things to say:

1.) We knew exactly who was in the bus and the opinions of those reflected in the video apply to not only Uncle Scam and his crooked posse, but to the media that facilitated his quest for empire as well.

2.) As far as your opinions on my appearence and clothing, just goes to show how close minded and stereotype based the supporters of Uncle Scam really are. That person doesn’t wear a suit so he must be dumb or crazy! Wake up people, image is nothing, character is everything. I left my office job, changed clothes, protested, changed and went back to work. But go ahead and keep judging, I made national news with my message.

3.) The Gesture

I stand by my actions as the most effective and concise way to express my opinion of the man who side stepped the democratic process (believe it or not) to set in motion the plans that were established years ago by those who pull his strings. What a patsy! Funny how its OK to go to war and kill hundreds of thousands over “cherry picked” intelligence, but, flip of the man who is dividing our country, bankrupting our future and re-writing policies that took hundreds of years for our nation to set in place and you are a “moonbat”.

Lastly,

Thanks for posting this or I never would have known I made the national news.

Peace and Freedom to all,

Proud Moonbat

Freedom to all,

really? you mean except for the 27 million Iraqis right? because your entire post states pretty clearly that you’re against the war… I’m not even going to debate you because you’re clearly too off the wall to waste time on… I’ll just say that if that really is you, you look like the psycho who lives in the apartment above me… so if that’s you, stfu up there and next time you take to much acid and have one of your blowout fights with your girlfriend, there’s no need to shatter glass things out the front door.

Gosh, looks like the liberals at the communist news network are so tied in with the Michael Moore left that they have to cower inside their bus from a few protesters rather than actually going into the crowd and, gee, I dunno, maybe asking one of the protesters why they were there. It’s weird, I know the media’s mostly liberal yet I never hear them mention some of the things my liberal friends say. I mean, I know people like those moonbats protesting and I would have thought those pointy headed libs at CNN would give those nitwits waay too much airtime. I figured those types at CNN would probably be joining drum circles with those hippie anarchist wannabes. But they just cowered in their bus from the protesters then cut the video to portray the protesters as dangerous, out of control thugs. Weird. It’s almost as if…?

I mean, if we get Ann Coulter, who, though I love her, is a tad irresponsible, how come the msm won’t led some moonbat like Cindy Sheehan on tv 80 times a year?

And yes, full disclosure, I sure do hates da Bush, but I’ll give props to this site for allowing comments from the opposition, unlike many Republidroid sites. Kudos to you Political Teen. You may redeem the conservatives yet. I’ll promise to look at Abramoff’s Democratic connections too, if you promise to examine some of his more powerful Republican allies, and their heavy handed K street shenanigans. Deal? If you do you’re more balanced then my local crap Gannett news service paper here in Delaware, proud and blue, and 1st to ratify the Constitution.

rabair quipped “Freedom to all, really? you mean except for the 27 million Iraqis right?”

According to a poll by the British Defense Ministry 45% of the Iraqis believe attacks on Coalition soldiers are justified. So I guess it’s only about 15 million Iraqis that want freedom. We’ll just have to kill the other 12 million. But how do we find out who’s who? I guess we’d better just “free” them all to Allah by nuking the whole country.

Ohhh, it’s me. Just for the record, I own my own house, am happily married with two children and have a great, high paying office job.

That said, freedom of speech applies to me just as much as it does you. I am really sad for all those you children who were spending their morning watching CNN. Wow, must suck to be that kid.

Just pull your head out for a moment and consider the fact that maybe a lot of the people are hard working, well educated citizens who have had enough with the leadership of this country and the media the serves up their propaganda.

THE ROAD TO BAGHDAD IS PAVED WITH LIES.
THE ROAD TO NEW ORLEANS IS FLOODED WITH INCOMPETENCE.
THE ROAD TO THE WHITE HOUSE WAS BOUGHT WITH CASH.

“I’d rather be in prison, in a George Orwellian world, than live in a pacified society of happy boys and girls. I’d rather know my enemies and have you know the same. Whose windows to smash and whose tires to slash and where to point the f—king blame!”

Propagandhi

Good luck to all, stay informed.

Ivan, you said Just to clarify, I’m not a peacenik. I supported the first Gulf War, the incursion into Afhganistan.

and

*Iraq is about oil, Haliburton, and “Daddy’s unfinished business?, not 9/11.

*

The first gulf war was about what? Was Saddam involved in any way?

Iraq is about oil?

In 1991, Saddams armies set fire to oil wells, blackening the sky. You lefties are so sensitive about global warming and pollution, how many hundreds of years of equivalent automotive smog did Saddam send into the atmosphere by those oil fires? Yet you lefties said NO war! let Saddam alone!

Now Ivan, if you raise points that come directly from Ramsey Clark? Expect to hear those opinions being challenged.

Saying the war was about oil or his daddys unfinished business? What about all those Iraqi people who suffered, dont you liberals have any compassion for other humans in the world? When those humans are tortured and killed?

You libs should have demanded war in Iraq for humanitarian reasons alone

Hey, here is another one of me. Go crazy.

http://www.coloradopeace.org/2005/DenverSept24/Photos/pw/PhilWeinstein-Denver2005sep24-89-1000.jpg

The first Gulf War was about one nation invading another, and coming to the aid of the invaded nation to repel the invaders.

Rah rah. Wave the flags. The invaders are the bad guys.

I would come to the aid of my neighbor who was the victim of a home invader.

This war is about one nation invading another too. Except seems some players have switched hats.

But rah rah. Wave the flags. This time the invaders are the good guys.

I would not break into somebody else’s house.

Funny how easily you can change your concept of invaders being white hat guys or black hat guys.

By the way you’ll find I don’t quote anybody. I have my own thoughts and opinions.

Some will be similiar to some consevatives, some will be similiar to some liberals.

It’s because in a complex issue, intelligent people on both sides can come to similiar conclusions.

And please, drop the santimonious cry of “we’re spreading freedom”.

This isn’t about that. I don’t recall that being the rallying cry for battle.

It becomes a default excuse when all the others dont, umh, “pan out”.

I agree that the job should have been finished in the first Gulf War.

But what’s going on now is like getting into a bar fight (self defense) a year ago, letting the guy go, and then a year later walking into his house and smacking him down.

Go ahead, try it. See what the courts say about your claim of self-defense then.

Ivan wrote

*The first Gulf War was about one nation invading another, and coming to the aid of the invaded nation to repel the invaders.

Rah rah. Wave the flags. The invaders are the bad guys.

*

You dont even know who was involved, do you? It was some country invading another, lets change the topic…

Saddam was a nice guy who wanted beach front property to build a mall or something, whats the big deal?

oh, now the US is the invader?

So Ivan, you seem to be saying then that Saddam is a modern day George Washington with his small armies, and the USA and allies are the evil invading force? Poor Saddam wanted freedom for his people?

And you have travelled the world?

Do you promote all prisons and jails being opened up and letting everyone go free? if not, why not?

guoko787 wrote

*As the man in the picture I have a few things to say:

1.) We knew exactly who was in the bus and the opinions of those reflected in the video apply to not only Uncle Scam and his crooked posse, but to the media that facilitated his quest for empire as well.

*

If you were the dude in the photo? you are NOT a “man”. Being a man requires responsibility and moral fiber, and other attributes, but you show irresponsibility and blatant disregard for the president during wartime, for reasons that mirror known admitted traitors like Ramsey Clark.

If you are a patsy of Ramsey (hate America) Clark? Then you would prefer the company of other patsy’s right?

Do you have any proof of the claims you make against president Bush? No, why should you bother checking details, you want to be an irresponsible punk, which is your right apparently. But dont call yourself a ‘man’. you have a LONG WAY TO GO.

Yes, thank goodness we saved that bastion of freedom, Kuwait, from Saddam. Bush I encouraged Iraqis to rise up against Saddam, and they did, thinking they had the backing of America. Then we left them to be murdered by Saddam. The reason? We were afraid they would form another Iranian style Islamic republic. We preffered Saddam to that.

History shows that the US government always supports dictators that we put into power and can control over democratically elected governments that we can’t control.

Thanks for standing up for what real Americans want our country to be, guoko787!

seriously guoko787… if that is indeed you, and your little story is true.. wouldn’t your time be better spent taking care of your kids? you come off worse than some idiot college freshman who got spoonfed the BS of Fahrenheit 9/11 in his polisci class. Smarten up dude. Just so we’re clear you sensative sissy I AM NOT CHALLENGING YOUR RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH. You guys always scream free speech until someone calls you an idiot then you scream “hey, stop trying to censor me, I’m entitled to free speech”... newsflash, we aren’t trying to censor anyone, we’re mocking your idiotic antics. Anyway, at least educate yourself before running around with a bunch of hippies with silly signs. By the way, is it “competent” to create a sign so poorly that you can’t fit the word “incompetence”, so you add a carboard extension to fit the word? (referring to your link to another picture of “you”)

Bradley26 wrote

*oh, now the US is the invader?

Yes, you have stated that fact correctly. I’m not sure why you added the question mark. In any conflict, you’re the invader or the invaded. Are you saying that Iraq is the invader in this case?

*So Ivan, you seem to be saying then that Saddam is a modern day George Washington with his small armies, and the USA and allies are the evil invading force? Poor Saddam wanted freedom for his people?

No, I don’t support Saddam. Why don’t you focus on what I’m saying, not what I seem to be saying. The “you seem,” part is generally called “putting words into my mouth”. Why not allow me to do that since I am perfectly capable of doing so, and use your talk time to present your own views.

*And you have travelled the world?

Yes. Not “the world”, but a good number of countries. Would you like me to do a count? My views and knowledge and experience come from ground time spent in many foreign cultures, supplemented by facts and opinions I get from the media, which can be biased either way.

Where do you get your views and knowledge and experience?

*Do you promote all prisons and jails being opened up and letting everyone go free? if not, why not?

No. Prisons and jails are for criminals, in any country. Made so by due process of law, which I believe in this society starts off with “innocent until proven guilty”. The Soviet Union used to jail folk on suspicion, that was good enough for them. Sort of like Gitmo is being used now.

Do you believe in extended incarceration without charges? Do you believe in the current justice society as is applied to you? Do you think what is “just” for you should be applied to foreign people plucked from the streets in their own country during these “democracy spreading sweeps”?

You ask many questions, but answer few. Why is that?

I think perhaps you misread my “first Gulf War” post, Bradley. Sorry if my complex analogies confuse you.

Let me paraphrase for you so you can better understand.

The first Gulf War was a good thing. Iraq was the aggresive power, invading another souvereign nation.

This war is not a good thing. The US finds itself as the invading power. I’m not even demonizing that statement, so please don’t fill in the rhetoric. I’m stating a fact.

The two conflicts are entirely different.

Yes, you have stated that fact correctly. I’m not sure why you added the question mark. In any conflict, you’re the invader or the invaded. Are you saying that Iraq is the invader in this case?

The US is technically the “invading force?, Iraq is the aggressor and started the war. The US is not the precipitator or reason for war.

Focus on what you say, fine but like democrats do in the US, they cannot take a stand on issues but have to use fluff and confuse the points so they can safely be on either side of an issue, if poll numbers suggest that’s where they should be. I asked a question because, in fairness it seems relevant.

Where do you get your views and knowledge and experience?

I start with the Bible. The only inspired work mankind has, something that can be trusted because God wrote it. It says mankind is created by God, and man is sinful. I then look at events and give people the benefit of doubt to their reports, if a person is discredited, they have a chance to apologize or admit an error, how they handle this part determines a persons true character. I look to see first hand what the stories are and listen to actual quotes from those being quoted. I check commentaries by people with various political points of view. I also compare it to historical events.

Prisons and jails are for criminals, by process of law. But what is a criminal Ivan? Someone who commits crimes? Saddam is guilty of crimes against humanity, yet you lefties are silent on his brutality and murder and have the audacity to blame America first for holding him accountable, as a justice system would also do. If you WANT the justice process, why do you HATE justice applied to Saddam? You lefties want it both ways, right?

Gitmo? What do you know about it? Are your friends being held there? Comrades in cause? Why do you claim anything is wrong with Gitmo? Because you are told to by terrorist PR firms. Extended incarceration with out charges? What are you talking about? For US citizens, we use what is referred to as Habeas Corpus (you have the body/person, now do something with it). Hey I have an idea, this is so smart, if we can just let terrorists become US citizens? Then they can get the chance for an attorney(s) to defend them. We on the left will try to get them set free, because their only crime was trying to destroy the United States… They are held by the Military as enemy combatants. What flag from which country do they have allegiance to?? Quick!! Change the subject!!

Then the next post about the Gulf war, you were making complex analogies? Maybe Im really stupid because I didn’t see them, sorry.
You seemed to have said ” some country invaded another one over there somewhere…”
Iraq was the aggressor then and now. They violated their cease fire treaty, worthy of war, violated 17 UN resolutions demanding they disarm and destroy wmd programs, UNR1441 was the last one.

Bush has the courage to enforce it? you lefties wanted defeat, and are saying today it was a… bad? thing? Who else besides a Saddam loyalist or terror member would say the Iraq war is a bad thing, Ivan?? Can you educate me on this?

I didn’t call you stupid Bradley. If you chose to do so, that is unfortunate. By engaging in meaningful dialogue, it shows you may be incorrect in your assessment.

I’m unaware of the Bible being written by God. I was under the assumption that it was “the word of God” as interpretted by men who transcribed it, in another language far removed from English. It has been translated through the years, and as the BabelFish translation program will show you, that is a process that incurs more mistakes as each edition has been produced.

And of course, I have seen various versions from various religious sects.

If you have a first edition, written by God, and you are capable of reading the language it is written in, you are quite fortunate.

*Who else besides a Saddam loyalist or terror member would say the Iraq war is a bad thing, Ivan?? Can you educate me on this?

Well, ok. I’m not a Saddam loyalist or terror member. I think some wars are bad. Some parents who have lost their sons and daughters think it’s a bad thing. Some former vets think it’s a big thing. These people are on public record, and I’m not just talking about the high profile people, so no need to bring up Cindy. I can’t speak for them Bradley. Seek them out and ask them which of the two categories they are.

When you generalize and try to paint everyone with a single brush, you’ll end up with a mess Bradley. Try to add to the palet of your colors.

what would these libs have said had the WMDs the world believed were there had made it to our shores and wiped out thousands, or tens of thousands of people in a given city… They would point to all the quotes we do, of the 12 years leading up to the war where the Senate Dems (Kennedy, Reid, Rockefeller, Kerry, Clinton, etc. etc.) Pres. Clinton, Albright, etc. etc. And say “Told you so….Impeach Bush We warned him about Saddam’s WMDs for over a decade but he ignored the threat. In the post 9/11 world we can’t afford to ignore these kinds of threats and now we have thousands dead because Bush ignored our warnings about Saddam’s WMDs” Sickening how the left has politicized and undermined this war with the help of their media which has a stranglehold (but is slowly losing it) on the information business… they’ve rendered this war almost unwinnable and it’s really sad. The only thing that gives us hope is that this President doesn’t act based on opinion polls (unlike one opponent who took polls constantly, even on how to react to a Bin Laden tape shortly before an election vs. reacting in any honest way)

*Iraq was the aggressor then and now. *They violated their cease fire treaty, worthy of war, violated 17 UN resolutions demanding they disarm and destroy wmd programs, UNR1441 was the last one.

Since you are using the breaking of UN Resolutions, the US is participating in a UN sanctioned war?

Although I don’t agree with you, I respect your strong viewpoints on the war Bradley. I am interested in the actions you are taking to support it.

Are you a serving member of the military? If not, why not?

*Gitmo? What do you know about it? Are your friends being held there? Comrades in cause? Why do you claim anything is wrong with Gitmo?

I know it is a US military base in a foreign country that does not want foreign troops on their soil. Does this conflict with your knowledge of it?

What is wrong with Gitmo? If Cuba had a piece of Florida, you would probably view that as being a very bad thing. Why is the reverse different?

No, none of my friends are being held there. Why do you need to be so dramatic?

Ivan,
I will try harder to stay on topic.

The bible is a collection of books that represents Scripture, and in circular logic, Scripture says literally “All Scripture is breathed out by God” in 2Timothy. The original is absolutely inerrant, Jesus even says its easier for heaven and earth to pass away than the smallest punctuation of Gods law to fail.

We note the authors, men who penned the original works? were never “inspired men” but only the words were. Mainstream Christianity accepts the concept that God superintended the authors writing, giving each one unique vocabularies, talents and life experiences.

The original works, if they existed in total? would be fought over and worshipped, in my opinion rather than followed. The Catholic church, for example, applies holy communion incorrectly, worshipping the cup instead of giving “the communion wine” to worshippers;

Jewish teachings discredit God and say Jewish priests are smarter than God, I dont agree;

Islam? we can talk about it, but any mention of truth is strictly forbidden by islamicist apologists. Some say its the religion of “peace”. Yes, in a way thats true, mass graves of victims of islam appear quiet and peaceful.

If youre not a Saddam loyalist? good.

But then your reasons to oppose the war, that Ive seen so far? appear to be flawed reasons that do not hold up to tests of truth.

broad brush? no. Im looking for answers here Ivan. I see another post, so will look at that one

“You lefties”. You say that often. Why do you feel the need to attach a label to me? I have the courtesy to talk to you as an individual person.

I’m not a leftie, Bradley. My political views incorporate views from many sides of the spectrum.

Again, I’ll summarize. I applaud the first Gulf War, the Afhghan war, not the current Iraq war.

1 out of 3 makes me a leftie???

Since you are using the breaking of UN Resolutions, the US is participating in a UN sanctioned war?
The UN is a debating society who rewards and supports terrorism and genocide, they managed to vote 15-0 to support UNR1441, then decided to “think about it” and pull a John Kerry, saying they actually did vote for it, before voting against it.

dont none of you’s liberals now try to say the UN didnt make the Iraq war legal, because they did.

Youre great at changing the subject, am I in the active military? why is the military the only branch of government that counts? When I turned 18 I applied for the selective service, I encourage anyone to sign up for the military, get in the best shape of your life and learn discipline. If drafted? Im happy to serve, thank God we have president Bush who knows how to lead the military properly and responsibly.

If Cuba doesnt want US military forces there, this is a bad thing to you? You dont recall how Castro was telling Nikita Cruschev to “nuke the US” ? or how Cuba slaughtered American soldiers in the bay of pigs debacle under a democrat government? or how Cuba worked with the USSR to setup communism in central America? to setup nukes owned by the USSR pointed at America from El Salvador? Reagan stopped them, democrats cried foul and began the “Iran/Contra” affair to cover their cooperation with Soviet spies. a lot has happened in Cuba, Gitmo didnt just appear there one day.

But if Don Rumsfeld comments on Gitmo? then I agree with him.

Ivan, youre not a leftie? Its not an insult. Hannity gets into this with Colmes (Hannity&Colmes on Foxnews, check local listings); and I just like Sean Hannity am a conservative and on “the right”. Alan Colmes, who chats with me by email sometimes, is on “the left”.

There are 4 corners of political belief,

Authoritarian, Libertarian, Conservative, Liberal.

Saying you are a leftie only means left, its not in any way insulting.

Im rather confident that youre not a republican, Ivan. If you claim Bush misrepresented facts over the Iraq war, or its about “oil”, or that its “a mess” or it was “an illegal war” ? The only people making these claims are liberals, democrats or “lefties”. So be it.

If I call someone a traitor, like Ramsey Clark? that takes a stricter level of proof and outrage.

IMO its good to have left/right putting ideas in to problem solving. I cannot tolerate the leftist mainstream media using its media power to promote the democrat DNC agenda, and to use “news” shows to promote lies against Bush or this Iraq war.

I have seen a few people try to call others out on military service. “The Bush and Cheney children should be fighting the war?…statements to that end and Ivan challenging people on their support of the war but their failure to be an active duty service member. This only works until you get to that pro-Bush-pro-War guy/gal who is in uniform or to that Senator with two children in Iraq. Then the response is always just “OK, well good for you.?
In the history of our Nation, military service was often considered an obligation during war because wars required large numbers of trigger pullers. Not exactly the case anymore, or at least not on that scale for the wars our Nation has the highest probability of needing to fight.

As a serving officer, I don’t want anyone under my command that doesn’t have a passion for military service and a strong desire to fulfill their duties to the highest standards of competence and excellence. Also, I would prefer to have a beer with the Bush daughters over having to order them take the hill. Recently, the Liberal assertion that the war is being disproportionably fought by minorities and lower-classes has been debunked. The average education level of service members is significantly higher than the average education level of minority/lower class neighborhoods. Also, the volunteer rate for the middle and upper classes has increased since 9-11, while the volunteer rate from lower classes has decreased.

In short, we only want volunteers who are well motivated and educated. We don’t need every Pro-War citizen to join up. Go keep the economy strong and hire us if we’re looking for a job when we get out and thanks for your support in the meantime.

Also, considering Ivan’s earlier “Invading Force? idea…this is a clever way to break an event down to the most simple description of action in order to make that description suggest an unfair idea.

Your neighbor ascribes to a religion that allows total control of husband over wife (hypothetical religion). You observe him beating his wife for reading a book. You rush to enter his home and physically restrain him from continuing the beating.
Did you, possibly save a woman’s life and keep a bully from doing further harm? Or did you break into your neighbor’s home and assault him over his differing religious belief.

Did Clinton try to prevent Genocide and another World War in Kosovo? Or did he kill more people than “the Genocide? had so that he could be a “war time President? and also to remove attention from his personal problems? Personally I believe the first, but it would be easy to “believe? the second if I saw some political advantage and if I wasn’t an intellectually honest person.

You call OIF/OEF an invasion of Iraq by an aggressor and then talk about sovereignty. Why couldn’t the Soviets keep missiles in Cuba? Why couldn’t we keep them in Med?
Does a Nation have the right to keep their women and their large lower classes ignorant and to teach them that they can be heroes if they go blow up their “oppressors? in the West? The sovereignty debate is an interesting one, but not fair if you preface the debate in a misleadingly simplistic manner.

No. I didn’t call it an insult. I called it a label. No big deal, I’m not insulted. Just pointing out labels can start to dehumanize your opponent.

Yes, I’m aware of the “4 corners”. 4 corners make a box. I move around the box. Spending your life in 1 corner really isn’t very enriching.

I’m good at changing the topic??? No, if you carefully follow my thread, it’s really just sticking to a few core points. My first point started with “why aren’t war supporters enlisting?”, more or less.

No American soldiers were killed at the Bay of Pigs. And a lot of other points you make are skewed or wrong. We shouldn’t expand that particular topic, in keeping with not changing the topic.

Just sticking to Gitmo, which is related to Iraq, and the occupation of land in foreign countries, contrary to the principles of 1776.

Indefinite occupation of foreign soil has traditionally been called “colonialism”. Do you support this as appropriate foreign policy?

Hey, welcome back FalconBobby.

The sovereignty issue is indeed large and complex. Lots of issues of right and wrong.

The communists believe the whole world should be of the same system. Does claiming the whole world should adapt “the American way” be viewed any different?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/4/29/34913.shtml

is about bay of pigs, and the total failure of Kennedy.

summarize anything I said about the others thats wrong?

You say its too extensive to talk about then want to discuss colonialism? Do you see Chinas threats to go to war over Taiwan as bad or similar?

Wow, how dare the greatest nation on earth, The United States, should try and impose freedom and democracy on others? its so Stalinist isnt it?

Didn’t socialists openly talk about the coming world-wide revolution and their intent to support all socialist insurgencies? I don’t support a similar open policy for Democracy out of Jingoist arrogance. My take is that, continued generally peaceful coexistence on this planet requires globalization on a scale that may need to be accelerated to prevent holdouts from using WMDs.
We may need to repeat the OEF/OIF process with nations whose leaders base their power on the ignorance and fear of huge lower classes. If not to bring American/Democratic “Freedom” to their people, then just because those leaders
will become larger threats as oil power eventually wanes and WMDs become easier to produce (due to technology if not black market trading).
Back to the sovereignty issue, when a nation poses a growing threat to the US, at what point do we preemptively strike? Missles in Cuba were too much. WMDs in nations that openly encourage terrorism and consider us their enemy…if we strike too early we are colonialists…if we wait too late, millions may die. Yes, for now it seems like Iraq didn’t have any WMDs. If this is true, Saddam’s administration at least demonstrated the willingness to use all of their WMDs against their enemies as soon as they obtained them. In a world that is becoming ever smaller and more dangerous, how long could we have allowed Saddam’s Iraq to exist? The only thing that will stop oil power from waning, is if technology advances are halted due to natural or unnatural climactic events. Meaning any self-declared enemies we have will gain more motive for our destruction and more ability to produce that destruction in the next century.

I’m sure if an obviously superior country occupied the United States, Bradley 26 would not rise up against them. He would gladly allow them to “free” him.

Freedom is to be fought for, not “imposed”. Clinton’s plan for Iraq was to support popular resistance against Saddam, not to send in an occupying force.

So your idea of Clintonianism, abandoning the Iraqi resistance and letting them be tortured, raped and murdered then buried in mass graves by Saddam was… somehow a model that worked?

Or you dont know what happened in Iraq after Clinton first took office, and how his cowardice and failure to act led to genocide, which is “okay” by democrat standards.

Just dont insult terrorists by making them strip in front of women? Thats an impeachable offense.

The USA is a Christian nation, where Christian beliefs can be safe because there is freedom of religion. That freedom is what angers you leftists more than anything else.

The genocide of Iraq and Somalia is bad because…? the infanticide of slaughtering newborn and unborn children is bad because…?

So now we’re torturing and raping Iraqis. How is that an improvement? Not only that but we’ve created chaos and destroyed the infrastructure. BTW, as I mentioned earlier, it was Bush I who abondoned the Iraqi resistance.

I’m no Clinton lover. While he was in office I thought he left a lot to be desired, but after seeing W in action, Clinton seems like a great president. W is so bad he got me to vote for Kerry!

Are you saying, Bradley 26, that you think we should invade every country that is not democratic? Or only the ones that are weak? Or only the ones that have oil? What about Pakistan? They have nukes and a dictator who took over in a military coup. They probably harbored, and may still be harboring, Osama bin Laden. Remember him? W doesn’t spend much time on him. He’s the guy that was responsible for 9-11. Not Saddam.

As for freedom of religion, it’s clear from what you said that you believe in freedom of Christian religion only, and probably only your particular type of Christianity. Christian fundamentalists are no better than Islamic fundamentalists in my book. Nice way to bring abortion into it by the way.

The US is not a Christian nation. Show me where Christ is mentioned in the Constitution.

Leaf, you wrote So now we’re torturing and raping Iraqis. How is that an improvement? Not only that but we’ve created chaos and destroyed the infrastructure

By “we” you mean the USA? No, I disagree that it takes place, what are you referring to? The abu Ghraib scandal? Or the secret CIA torture places or what?

First answer me if you care that people were tortured? Or is the subject just used for shock value? If you care about people, why do you disregard Saddams actions? It jumps from what Saddam did to saying oh, well… the US is doing the same thing, so its just as bad?

No, you clearly dont understand what Saddam was doing. The US and our allies do not conduct any such thing. I reject the premise. There could be detainees that are harshly interrogated, is that what you refer to?

Destroyed the infrastructure? Do you realize how out of touch with reality the statement is? You must be aware of news events in Iraq, why would you say this? Maybe there is some destruction of infrastructure Im not aware of.

I know the US spends time building schools, roads, water, power and has Iraqis working hard and making great progress.

But during Clintons reign before he was impeached, Saddam was illegally selling oil and illegally buying weapons from France, Germany and Russia. The oil for food program paid for Saddams plush palaces while Iraqi people starved to death, had no running water, virtually no medicine, and anyone Saddam suspected was brutally tortured, or their children were tortured to death as the parents were forced to watch. Saddams regime would take prisoners and video tape them being put into large shredders, and laughed as the people screamed until they died. Women and children occupied rape and torture rooms, the details of their abuse is unspeakable, because of US invaders, they are now set free.

You are saying its better for them to have remained?

The crimes against humanity that Saddam and his regime caused? Are on a massive scale rivaling the worst psycopathic murderers in history.

Yet you liberals sit there and say it was WRONG to have invaded Iraq? You can invent stories to say its wrong, but you wont mind if they get compared with reality?

Should we invade every bad country?
To quote a famous person, “we shoud invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity”

But even when a brutal dictator who violated 17 UN resolutions and used wmd on innocent civilians and the long list of crimes gets this much defense by liberals? An incarnation of Hitler, Stalin or any other bloodthirsty mass murderer? liberals say no, he isnt so bad, why go to war? Somalia is another example of Islam in action. Genocide, slavery, poverty, disease. All thanks to the application of islam in their society.

bin Laden? who cares, he is no longer effective, he now hides, roaming the mountains, out of touch, bin Laden is under control.

Christian fundamentalists are no better than Islamic fundamentalists? Then you dont know. Christians tell you to repent to God because afterwards comes the judgement, and Christ offers you eternal life as a free gift, so take the gift and be happy.

Islam says you must obey the laws of men, and cannot question the deranged doctrine made famous by a self admitted demon possessed pedophile, the penalty for not obeying is death.

The USA is a Christian nation because it was founded by Christians who established freedom of religion.

There were even official state churches until about 1824.

But that doesnt tell the whole story, There had been a great Christian revival, by 1775 those leaders in the colonies were 3rd generation of one of the strongest Christian revivals ever. Parents and grandparents of those men and women taught pure biblical values, it was intermeshed in society in ways we can hardly imagine today. Perhaps a good example is being Orthodox Jew in Israel? the faith is stong in the people who use their religion in daily life.

Predominantly strong Christians founded the nation, where being Christian was normal. They put laws into effect that held up for a while, prohibiting laws to interfere with religion or establishment; The TOO powerful liberal Supreme court decided it would change the constitution and began outlawing, interfering and abolishing Christianity in the USA.

Today? we will be hearing of lawsuits against Christmas decorations. Children in school wont have Christmas holiday, they will get politically correct holiday time off. They cannot sing Christmas carols in school, or make decorations for the Christmas tree, they cannot make cards, or sing or even smile.

What do you expect from a society that doesnt even have a Shivaree once in a while no more?

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.
—Thomas Jefferson