October 18, 2005
US NEWS – Sparked by today’s Washington Post story that suggests Vice President Cheney’s office is involved in the Plame-CIA spy link investigation, government officials and advisers passed around rumors that the vice president might step aside and that President Bush would elevate Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.“It’s certainly an interesting but I still think highly doubtful scenario,” said a Bush insider. “And if that should happen,” added the official, “there will undoubtedly be those who believe the whole thing was orchestrated – another brilliant Machiavellian move by the VP.”
Two things: (1) Just about everyone in DC has been affiliated with this now infamous garbage we call a “leak”. Liberals need to pick and choose their arguments; they also need to pick and choose the people they smear. (2) Cheney is not stepping down. Bush needs Cheney and Cheney needs Bush.
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33 Responses to “Newest Plame Conspiracy Theory: Dick Cheney is Involved”
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6:10 pm [ Quote ]
Ian,
First, I’m interested to see how this is a “liberal” argument. Fitzgerald was appointed by the Attorney General’s office AND he is a republican. Second, the information suggesting that Cheney may be involved is coming from sources INSIDE the investigation, being conducted by the republican investigator Fitzgerald.
Further, I don’t know how in good conscience, you can call the leak, if it happened, “garbage, because it certainly is much more severe than that. To suggest that, again if true, the VP could have been a part of the revealing of a covert agent, thereby exposing a cover with contacts that had been developed over several years of work all in the name trying to harm the credibility of a report which did not favor the administration’s rush to combat is a very chilling, calculated reminder of just how far this administration was willing to go in order to start and continue military action in a place where we had no business being. In other times in this country, that type of subversion would have been enough to get someone stood up before a firing squad. To suggest that it’s “garbage” is just dishonest on your part…
6:13 pm [ Quote ]
Dan F: I never said Fitzgerald was liberal. I’m not sure where you got that from. I did say that LIBERALS are making some whacky conspiracy theories about Cheney’s “involvement”.
Secondly, we don’t know if it is or if it i not a leak, that is why I put leak in quotations.
7:19 pm [ Quote ]
Anyone have any idea who was the last Vice President to be indicted while in office? Was it Gore? Has this ever happened in our history?
8:37 pm [ Quote ]
BartCopFan – the googlebait you need is “Spiro Agnew” who resigned when facing indictment
Even if the Fitzgerald returns no indictments, it’s not the only major scandal afflicting the party, and the DHS/TSA procurement scandals haven’t really surfaced in the MSM yet…
I’d say that if you are looking for a career in politics in the next few decades, it might be a very good idea to develop some credibility outside the Republican party, otherwise you’ll wind up painted with the “Corrupt Oligarchy” sign the other parties will pin on you.
8:42 pm [ Quote ]
You guys are all wrong, the Associated Press found evidence in Cheney’s Garage that – now hold on to your hats – he doesn’t recycle! That scumbag!
If you have a very clean garage and don’t recycle, you must be guilty of high crimes and midemeanors, right liberal comrades?
9:20 pm [ Quote ]
Well from what we beforehand their are two people that are seriously being investigated for the Plame leak. There’s Scooter Libby and Karl Rove. But if it turns out that Libby was in part responsible, it’s highly unlikely that he would have acted without the consent of the vice-president which means that if Libby is involved then Dick Cheney had a hand in this also.
We also know that loyalty is the primary qualification for working in the Bush Administration above everything else, and that Libby will no doubt be asked to fall on his sword to protect the Vice-President, so I don’t know if Fitzgerald could make anything stick to the Vice-President in this situation.
It’s also not unreasonable that there are quite a few more people who were aware of what’s going on, I’m sure the Wilson smear campaign was undoubtly brought up in WH meetiings (thus explaining the large number of people interviewed so far), but it seems like the two I mentioned above are ones most responsible for spreading the information and most likely Dick Cheney gave the order.
I also agree that Bush needs Dick. I think incidents like the Hurricane Katrina disaster have highlighted how helpless he is without someone telling him what he should be doing.
This of course still speculation considering how little all of know for sure since Fitzgerald isn’t leaking info, ultimately we’ll see what happens when the indictments start coming out and his report is made.
9:48 pm [ Quote ]
Umnumzana – I guess you can make a joke out of treason, or conspiracy to commit treason, if you choose to, but if indeed it HAS happened, and one or more of this administration are found to be responsible for it, can you justify their doing so? What would lead you to continue to support an administration which would employ those who would resort to treason or the conspiracy to commit treason as a way of dealing with opponents of their policies?
Not to mention an administration which clearly also supports, if not encourages, the use of torture in dealing with those who we are supposed to be at “war” with?
Explain to me how either of these circumstances is worthy of the support of the American people…
9:54 pm [ Quote ]
Lord of Karma: It is hard to take you seriously when it appears you are reacting out of hate for the President and the Adminstration. We are only getting accustions and rumors at this stage and it is dangerous and unAmerican to assume guilt before the facts are all in.
It is amazing how you take one rumor and then wind your way into the White House and virtually accuse the President of saying, “Hey Dick, get your Chief of Staff to leak that Wilson’s wife Valarie Plame is a CIA spook, that will teach that traitor!”
There is not yet any credible evidence she was outed at all, by anyone other than Novak. There is evidence she was no longer a secret operative at the time, that the law was not violated according to the lady who wrote the law, and that her husband was wholly unqualified to go on the mission she recommneded him for, but beyond that all we have is rumors!
10:04 pm [ Quote ]
There was a group whose job it was to sell the Iraq war. Cheney, Rice, Rove, Libby and a few others.
I heard that perhaps one of them. Turned to save himself.
So many rumors so little time. We’ll just have to wait a little longer.
I do believe at least one probably two or three could be indicted.
Don’t forget judy miller she may not be off the hook either.
10:04 pm [ Quote ]
Dan F: Get a grip pal! I was poking fun at the Associated Press and the great Cheney garage escapade and how liberals tend so easily to jump to conclusions, like you!
There are so many rumors out there and so few facts, that it is insane that you liberals are building this great treason charge! It is nonsense!
First,there is no objective evidence that Valarie Plame was outed by anyone but Bob Novak! Next, the people who wrote that law have stated that based on what they know about Valerie’s career and how the law is written, that the law was not violated at all, by anyone. Lastly, and this is something many of you liberals absolutely hate: in America we are supposed to believe people accused of any crime are actually innocent, until and unless they can be objectively proven in a court of law to be guilty. Many liberals, and it appears you are included among them, believe that an accustaion against any conservative of any wrongdoing is absolute, conclusive evidence of guilt, no trial is needed, and we should just go straight to the execution. A bit harsh and certainly unconstitutinal!
10:08 pm [ Quote ]
Umnumzana
The charges may be perjury or conspiracy not outing a covert CIA agent.
10:15 pm [ Quote ]
Steve: Yes, “The charges may be perjury or conspiracy not outing a covert CIA agent,” and I agree; but would you agree that is not treason? Just stupidity? Also, would you agree that perjury is hard to prove and conspiracy is the prosecutors fallback charge?
Look, if anyone debleiberately, lied or tried to get others to lie – they are stupid and deserve what they get. But, I am old fashioned Steve, I won’t join the mob and demand they be hung until after the trial, and then we’ll let Ted Kennedy serve as executioner, he’s had previous experience with Mary Joe, right?
10:33 pm [ Quote ]
Umnumzana – I guess if you’d bothered to read my posts completely, you’d have noticed that I qualified each statement with the caveat “if true.” Of course, in your haste to start pointing your finger at me for what I’m doing, you may have missed this. Further, it was Karl Rove’s garage. I would also argue that not many know about what Valerie Plame Wilson did at the CIA, and for good reason: She was still listed as covert. As such, I doubt that even the author of the law would know if it had been violated or not. I’m again not convicting anyone of anything. It is hard to argue, however, on the point that this administration clearly supports the policy of torture, as evidenced by the vow to veto the recent overwhelmingly supported bill in the senate condemning the use.
By the way, Ted Kennedy doesn’t have any more OR less experience as executioner than does First Lady Laura Bush. It would be good to remember that…
10:56 pm [ Quote ]
umnumzana
No we won’t hang anyone prematurely. Besides if anyone gets convicted they will be pardoned by Bush. So no one is going to jail.
All we will have is a revealing or a rolling back of the lid on what I think is probably a shameful episode in American politics. That will be enough.
It needs airing badly and I hope we get it.
11:23 pm [ Quote ]
Umnumzana,
First of all it’s seems pretty self-evident that a crime was committed by someone other then Novak as Novak should have not known Valerie Plume’s name without someone with a clearance leaking that information, and the fact that she wasn’t in the field at the time doesn’t make her name any less secret information. Also if her name was not secret in the first place there is no reason why Fitzgerald would be making a case out of it, there’s no reason he’d waste his time if the law wasn’t broken, and unless Novak has mad breaking and entering skillz, the name had to be leaked to him by someone with a secret clearance.
I also have to disagree with your belief that the president was involved in this scandal, I assume it must be your belief despite my feelings toward the President since I haven’t said anything about the President, you just jumped to that conclusion on you own (how unamerican of you:p).
As for my accusing anyone of anything, I pointed out in my last point that I’m merely speculating about what’s going to happen and possibly how the her name was leaked based off of what little we know at this point and I’m not saying anyone is guilty of anything (well someone’s probably guilty, but it’s still too early to say who yet). I’ll also be glad to entertain your or anyone else’s theory of how Valerie Plume name ended up getting leaked to the press, It’ll be interesting the different ideas people have so we can see who’s right when Fitzgerald makes his report.
Either way there is nothing unamerican about having an opinion on something, or even on a case that hasn’t been settled yet if you don’t mistake your opinion for fact which I’m clearly not doing.
11:52 am [ Quote ]
Moonbat fantasies
They’re going off the deep-end w/this Valerie Plame business. 1st Rove is going down…then Libby…now they saying Cheney will resign. Sometimes I just sit and wonder what it must be like to live in such alternate reality. Do the laws…
12:14 pm [ Quote ]
The world is composed of more than just Conservatives and Liberals. I am a Conservative who opposes the policies, theatrics, and law breaking of this “borrow , spend, and steal” Administration. To my fellow Conservatives here, who allow blind loyalty color their views of the current situation, I have only three words….”Rule of Law!”
12:33 pm [ Quote ]
“The world is composed of more than just Conservatives and Liberals. I am a Conservative who opposes the policies, theatrics, and law breaking of this “borrow , spend, and steal? Administration. To my fellow Conservatives here, who allow blind loyalty color their views of the current situation, I have only three words….?Rule of Law!?”
I’m fine with going with the rule of law, but I’m waiting for you, Mr. “I am a Conservative” to delineate which laws have been broken. Can you at least do that instead of engaging in “theatrics” yourself?
12:41 pm [ Quote ]
Bush is NOT Conservative: You can call yourself a conservative or a Chrysler Cordoba sedan, but that don’t make it so pal!
Just because we conservatives prefer Bush to Kerrey or any Democrat alternative, does not mean we rubber stamp everything he does or do not criticize many things about him, including his big spending habits. But, the difference is – we are not going to walk with the enemy (liberals) when we disagree with him, and we certainly would never embrace a liberal Democrat!
So, comrade Democrat go on and pretend to be a conservative and embrace liberalism in the process, that is your right as an America!
12:46 pm [ Quote ]
Steve Donohue: You have no evidence whatsoever that Bush would pardon anyone, you are projecting your criminal pardoning pal Billy Jeff onto an image of Bush, but it won’t fit!
Steve, you are judging that this situation probably reveals “a shameful episode in American politics,” before any objective evidence is produced. This is the new liberal tactic, Nixonianing every Republican in hopes you can convince the ignorant masses they are all the same. Please Steve, try just once holding your fire until the enemy is clearly in sight, otherwise you just waste ammunition and when you really need it, no one can take your seriously!
1:31 pm [ Quote ]
BTW, I saw an article in the New York Times recently in which Fitzgerald was reported as saying he had no intentions of filing a report at this time. Which makes the possibility that there will be indictments from this case alot stronger since his only other option would be to close the 2 year case with nothing, which would undoubtly hurt his reputation and bring out a storm of controversy in the matter, in other words I don’t see that happening.
1:34 pm [ Quote ]
Lord of Karma – The Reincarnated One:
I believe the law in question states that even if a CIA agent was covert, if they had not been covert for five or more years, then exposing their name and past covert status is not a crime. Don’t misundertand, I still think it is wrong and in my mind if anyone is guilty of doing so, they should be fired as they present the “appearance of evil” which is bad enough! Valarie was in administration at Langley when outed, and if I recall the information correctly, she had been out of the field for more than 5 years. But, Steve is right that, any indictments that may result may have to do with perjury or conspiracy to commit perjury, not outing a covert agent!
Why is Fistgerald making a case out of it as he would be wasting his time if no one broke the law. Is he investigating the outing of Valerie or leaking confidential information by someone working in the government?
Oh, I never said Bush was involved, I simply stated that was the clear, inescapable implication of your conspiracy theory.
No it is not unAmerican to speculate! But, that is not what I was talking about and you know it! I was saying that to judge guilt absent a trial, is unAmerican in that it violates the basic concept of innocent until proven guilty. In other words, everyone accused and questioned in this case – are innocent, and the government has the burden to prove their guilt, the accused have no obligation under our Law to prove their innocence.
Now you and Shirley McLaine must have much to talk about regarding your past lives!
1:39 pm [ Quote ]
Lord of the Karma – The Reincarnated One:
About the NYT article and your saying, “Which makes the possibility that there will be indictments from this case alot stronger since his only other option would be to close the 2 year case with nothing, which would undoubtly hurt his reputation and bring out a storm of controversy in the matter.”
Could it be that you are clinging to any hope, no matter how distant that Rove and Bush will gett he axe? Liberals need to leave Fantasyland!
3:03 pm [ Quote ]
Well, I’m just going to have to end this debate by saying we’ll all find out by the 28th, but the fact that White House is taking seriously the possibilty of indictment indicates that it’s no fantasy (or maybe not, the White House also fantasized about stuff like mobile weapons labs in Iraq, but that’s a discussion for anothertime).
One thing hope doesn’t happen is Bush being forced to step down or being impeached, as while he is in office he does more damage to conservative ideology then anyone else possibly could. Nor do I draw the President’s involvement as a forgone conclusion of my line of reasoning, for that would assume that the President is one person who is ultimately in charge in principle as well as theory, while I believe Bush is in charge only in theory while alot of decisions are made by those around him with only a dim awareness by Bush of what those decisions actually are.
As for my name, I actually don’t believe in Reincarnation any more then I believe in Christianity (which I’d be tempted to make fun of since it’s just as silly to me), the name is just a reference to the laws of Karma, which is a different aspect of eastern religions (more specifically the Lord of Karma is the one who supposedly reaps karma between cycles of the universe, thus also making reference to the cyclic aspect of nature, but I didn’t expect anyone to know that).
Ultimately I think we will see people in public office just as everyone else reap the consequences of their karma if they live along to see their problems return to them, although unlike a buddhist I can say that once your dead your dead, no reincarnation and no heaven (sorry for getting off topic, but I’d rather clear it up now that have it keep coming up).
3:14 pm [ Quote ]
Umnumzana,
Nancy Pelosi commented that “Republicans in Congress are plagued by a culture of corruption at the expense of the American people” when Tom Delay was indicted. It reveals one of the liberals oldest tactics: smear a whole group on the basis of the circumstances of one within the group.
Liberals have no problem with using that tactic to any and all conservative/Republican, so its no surprise they are doing it here.
Because they think this way, it allows them to play judge and jury in their minds. They feel they have all the evidence they need simply because their target is a conservative/Republican.
They also get indignant when some of their other tactics get used against them. They’ll complain long and loud about alleged dirty tricks used by Karl Rove and Dick Cheney while conveniently forgetting the antics of James Carville, Sandy Berger, and Dan Rather (to name a few).
3:34 pm [ Quote ]
Umnumzana
Re: You have no evidence whatsoever that Bush would pardon anyone.
WELL, guess what!
Bush has already pardoned 14 people reported Sept 28
But of course MSM is so right wing you have to dig to find anything controversial about Bush.
Here is the link:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/28/politics/main889049.shtml
4:44 pm [ Quote ]
“It reveals one of the liberals oldest tactics: smear a whole group on the basis of the circumstances of one within the group.”
Get over this, get over it now.
It’s a POLITICAL tactic. It works from any and all sides of the spectrum. It works outside of the political spectrum. It has nothing to do with the cards you carry or what table you play them on. I’m stick of this. I dare you guys to have one single argument without using the words Liberal, Republican, Conservative, Moonbat, Democrat, or other synonyms.
Would you guys have any idea what side of the argument things were on if they didn’t have names attached to them?
6:35 pm [ Quote ]
“Get over this, get over it now.”
Yes mom.
6:42 pm [ Quote ]
Steve Donohue: Yes, I didn’t know about that, don’t keep up I guess. But, did you notice the number in comparison to Clinton? So, my sarcasm about Clinton still stands, albeit a little less pure!
7:01 pm [ Quote ]
Lord of Karma: I was just teasing about the reincarnation stuff, gently tweaking your nose, no accusations.
Sadly, considering your anti-Christian bias, we can never agree on anything at anytime, and all debate is impossible, because we don’t even speak the same language. We are as alien from one another as if you were from Mars, which I suspect to be true, and I from the earth. There is no basis for communication or understanding whatsoever unless one of us changes their views, and I will never – ever agree with either your political philosophy or your atheism.
So, before I bid you a good day, I hope you continue on your path as we will still keep kicking the stuffings out of your side at the ballot box, because you are absent any ideas or plans for the future, you can only hate and teach others to hate! Oh, and while I wish no one any ill will, I am looking forward to seeing you standing before God on Judgment Day and explaining to him how silly Christianity is, that is, just before you take the down escalator!
7:53 pm [ Quote ]
Umnumzana
Did you just tell Lord o’ Karma to go to hell?
“take the down escalator!”
You may have to apologize before you are let in to heaven. All the people you diss may be lined up outside the pearly gates waiting for an apology from you. You wouldn’t want that line to be too long now would you?
8:07 am [ Quote ]
“Would you guys have any idea what side of the argument things were on if they didn’t have names attached to them?”
Yes we would. Most “Liberals” (not all), at least right now, start at hatred (I use this word because the left has used it for years to describe the right. Their usage of it has indicated they approve of it for political dialog)for the current administration and their arguments (in most cases) eminate from there.
Most conservatives (not all) start at support of the current administration and their arguments (in most cases) tend to lean in that direction.
Some moderates feel they’re superior to both groups and feel they can stand around and tell them to stop arguing.
12:07 pm [ Quote ]
Steve Donohue: Steve! Steve! Steve! Get a grip my liberal friend!
Lord of Karma indicated he was an atheist, and I simply proposed the possibility that he would find that position rather hollow when He faced God and then by his own choice went to hell (down escalator)! If he is still an atheist when he dies and has not found Christ as His Savior, I assure you he will absolutely spend eternity in perditions flames, as will anyone rejecting Christ. So, I was simply pointing our the dangers involved with his arrogant rejection of God.
Next, I am saved because of Christ, not because I behave perfectly! Salvation is not obtained by any good works or it is denied because of evil works; it is obtained simply by faith in Christ. No one can possibly be waiting anywhere to testify against me because, in your opinion, I disrespected them in this life or failed them in any way. Salvation is based on what Jesus did and that alone, and that is obtained by faith alone!