BREITBART – Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was declared unconstitutional Wednesday by a federal judge ruling in the second attempt by an atheist to have the pledge removed from classrooms. The man lost his previous battle before the U.S. Supreme CourtU.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge’s reference to one nation “under God” violates school children’s right to be “free from a coercive requirement to affirm God.”
Athiests account for 902,000 or 0.4% of the US population. Those who believe in a God or some sort of a higher being account for over 86% of the US population. It is amazing that such a small minority can rule over a large majority.
The deal here isn’t just the small amount of atheists in America, but the fact that they have to punish everyone for something they don’t believe in. If you do not want your child to recite the pledge of allegiance, then tell them not too. No one forces your child to stand up, put their hand over their heart and say 20 seconds worth of American patriotism. Thank God I go to a private school.
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3:17 pm [ Quote ]
The fact always remains that regardless of the religion you practice—or don’t practice. You should have the freedom of attending a public institution without being exposes to any religious indoctrination- AT ALL.
That’s why you can choose to attend private school. If you’d like to go to a religious-based institution, then do so. This is hardly a punishment. I don’t think you will hear any kids come crying home at night saying “Mom! They wouldn’t let us say the pledge today!” They can say it if they feel so inclined.
But to allow public institutions, supported by all tax payers, regardless of their religious background, the right to recite the pledge, rather than give individuals the right, then you violate many of the basic principles that this country stands on.
3:27 pm [ Quote ]
Ian—I’m not attacking you, but seriously, there is a large difference between having a public institution recite something religious and choosing not to say it, as opposed to someone, individually reciting something religious, as is their choice, in a public institution.
One is separation of chuch and state and the other is free speech.
I mean.. can’t we agree on that much?
I’m here because I’m sick of everyone pointing figures in political directions, I just want to have someone actually discuss these things with me, that’s all.
3:36 pm [ Quote ]
Yeah I personally don’t feel it’s appropriate. Even William Safire thinks so, Mr Conservative. Plus the “under God” part was put in in the 50’s AS a political statement against the commies.
3:39 pm [ Quote ]
Dianna is right. But I agree for a different reason. The solution for a multi-cultural, multi-religious society is SCHOOL VOUCHERS. To give the people the freedom of choice in education and the opportunity to spend their own tax money on their own kids education where they see fit. Instead of a education system designed where there are no winners or losers (everyone is equal mentality) and no competition. Then maybe the children will start to excel and we will have more Einsteins in this world than Michael Moore’s.
3:48 pm [ Quote ]
Then naturally these kids and parents will return all the money they ever received because it states: ” In God We Trust”.Well, maybe the mention of God is acceptable in certain cases, just not all?
No one forces the kids to SAY the Pledge. They can stand quietly while the others do.
3:48 pm [ Quote ]
One Nation Under God No More
Hat tip to California Conservative
Judge Declares Pledge Unconstitutional
The Pledge of Allegiance was ruled unconstitutional Wednesday by a federal judge who granted legal standing to two families represented by an atheist whose previous attempt to…
3:53 pm [ Quote ]
Freedom of Religion and Speech Stripped Away
I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
3:55 pm [ Quote ]
“In Republics, the great danger is, that the majority may not sufficiently respect the rights of the minority.” – James Madison
You’re right. Who cares about the minority when the majority has already chosen the path for them, eh?
3:56 pm [ Quote ]
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/principles/majority.htm
Read and learn, this is America, not Iran.
4:07 pm [ Quote ]
dianne – No one is holding a gun to a child’s head to force them to say the pledge. There is nothing wrong with sitting down and not saying the pledge. In my elementary school we had a kid like that.
Dubya – I never said minorities should not have rights. I am saying why should a small minority ruin things for a large majority?
4:17 pm [ Quote ]
Federal judge declares Pledge of Allegiance in public schools unconstitutional
Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was declared unconstitutional today by a federal
4:25 pm [ Quote ]
Ian, can I ask you what makes you call someone a conservative? I mean why do you feel you are one? Cause really the definition is suppose to be in part that you want less government, so this is a very
conservative friendly concept here. That is why Safire was for it, he is a true conservative.
4:28 pm [ Quote ]
Federal Judge Rules Against Pledge of Allegiance In Schools
Live from San Francisco…
God help us.
AP reports: “The Pledge of Allegiance was ruled unconstitutional Wednesday by a federal judge who granted legal standing to two families represented by an atheist whose previous attempt to get the pledge o…
4:37 pm [ Quote ]
If You Haven’t Gotten the Message Yet…
…I’ll say it again. If you can’t afford private schools, HOMESCHOOL YOUR CHILDREN!
Why fight for the right to recite the pledge in government schools when those same schools teach that perversion is normal, America is racist, and W…
4:42 pm [ Quote ]
So if Safire is a conservative and for it, then I have to be? No.
Why am I a conservative? I believe this country is becoming more and more liberal everyday. (Not politically liberal per se) You need to read the prologue (first 40 or 50 pages) of Bernie Goldberg’s 100 people who are screwing up America. It isn’t that political, he just notes the changes from what things used to be and what things are now. Morals – or what is left of morals – is deteriorating. What ever happened to someone with talent singing the anthem at NFL games? What ever happened to someone not yelling obscenities to get their point across? Whatever happened to people not condoning public nudity? Whatever happened to not seeing sex or curse words on prime time TV?
4:57 pm [ Quote ]
Ian, I don’t really see what the republican party is doing to stop any of that… They are very corporate oriented get a lot of money from the companies that own the stations that show football, show raunchy shows etc. Cheney used the F word when he shouldn’t have. I mean I agree with you in many ways, but I just don’t see how Bush’ policies deal with that, can you tell me where?
5:09 pm [ Quote ]
Also Ian, some of this “declining morals’ thing is an illsion. Case in point, Bob Dole said that most people think politics are more corrupt now than say in the 50’s and the exact opposite is true. Cultural things like Teen pregnancy’s are actually down.
5:27 pm [ Quote ]
Just another liberal judge on the drug that tricks his brain into believing that he is doing the right thing when he is doing the wrong thing, i do believe he is on the 9th jerket and they are over rule 85% of the time by real judges not on the drugs that they are on, the drug tricks one,s brain.
5:36 pm [ Quote ]
do this just stop saying it and used that time for instructing ten year old,s how to put a condom on a cucumber
they do that in some school you know or do you.
5:37 pm [ Quote ]
gene, sounds like you know this drug stuff quite well…
5:37 pm [ Quote ]
Perhaps Under a God, Perhaps Not
“Imagine every morning if the teachers had the children stand up, place their hands over their hearts, and say, ‘We are one nation that denies God exists,’” Newdow said in an interview with AP Radio after the ruling.
“I think that everybody wou…
5:43 pm [ Quote ]
Some one told me that the 9th jercket was
9 kkk members just in black robes verse
white robes, mr, savage told me that i think.
5:43 pm [ Quote ]
Federal Judge Rules Constitution “Unconstitutional”
Fresh on the heels of his ruling the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional, U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton is at it again. Late this afternoon before a courthouse packed with news people, Karlton took things a step further by ruling the
5:48 pm [ Quote ]
Carol, I can’t control who Bush’s friends are and what they do. But from my previous statement I basically defined a conservative and give a few examples. I can give a few more .. pro-life, anti-killing innocent children , pro-Big Business ..
5:58 pm [ Quote ]
I think this is a disgraceful ruling Ian. I am confident it will be overturned. Is it truly offensive to say Under God? And once again, they better return all their money, after all, it says the G word.
THEIR IS NO VIOLATION: We were protecting minority rights status quo. They were not forced to say it. Now kids who want to say it, can’t. The minority should not have so much power as to run the majority.
5:59 pm [ Quote ]
Like I said, I Don’t see how any of Bush’s policies help keep us moral. Did you know abortions are up since he is in office? many feel it’s due to it being harder for single women to make it on low incomes.
How is that moral?
Big Business needs to be checked to remain moral, look at Enron. Also they are the ones who get porn into hotels. And wink when TV puts on raunchy shows.
Ian, that is image you are talking about, not reality. YOu are supporting an image of what you want the world to be, and yet those you support aren’t doing anything to create it, look at actual policies, who and what their economic plans hurt.
6:17 pm [ Quote ]
God damned by federal judge.
Somehow or another, a federal judge has found a way to call unconstitutional the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools. A gut-check tells me this is wrong on so many levels:
Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was ru…
6:34 pm [ Quote ]
I’m confused. Does the constitution grant us “freedom of religion”, or is it “freedom from religion”? There’s quite a big difference in those two phrases.
If I believe that the theory of evolution is wrong (I don’t), should I be allowed to force people in public office to not mention it? Why then am I allowed to force them not to mention god if I don’t believe in one(I don’t)?
What bugs me about this case is that such a tiny minority of people can force the government to do something that 90% of americans disapprove of. I believe today’s decision will ultimately be overturned, but it still makes me angry :(.
“90%” was a guess, not a fact.
7:15 pm [ Quote ]
“No one forces your child to stand up, put their hand over their heart and say 20 seconds worth of American patriotism. Thank God I go to a private school.”
Government employees responsible for instructing and leading public school classes in the pledge are paid for with my tax dollars. The constitution makes it clear that those dollars will not be used in the name of religion – yours, mine, or anyone else’s. Why is this so hard to understand?
If you want to talk to god, go ahead. If you want your school to talk to god or to lead or instruct kids in talking to god, then get out of the public schools, which are paid for with my money.
Oh, wait, you are out of the public schools. So, wtf? If you want all Americans to fund your religious desires with their money, then muster the votes needed for a constitutional amendment.
By the way, this is pure ignorance:
“Athiests [sic] account for 902,000 or 0.4% of the US population. Those who believe in a God or some sort of a higher being account for over 86% of the US population. It is amazing that such a small minority can rule over a large majority.”
As if only atheists object to unconstitutional use of their tax dollars, or polytheists are figments of everyone’s imagination. Please.
7:21 pm [ Quote ]
Why not say “under law”? “Under law” is what should be taught, and if hyper-believers feel the need to change the terms, they can be free to do so. But ours is not a nation under God anymore than any other nation. Ours is a nation under law, and that is what makes us unique.
People who feel persecuted by this decision are completely unaware what threatens freedom and what advances it. The ID debate is the same.
7:42 pm [ Quote ]
Why stop at “under God” why not under Jesus it is a Christian country right?
To hell with minorities, right?
If they dont like it they can refloat the Mayflower and find another America. One that delivers what it advertises.
7:52 pm [ Quote ]
Big Government vs Liberty
The headlines frame it in the Right’s preferred language: Judge: School Pledge Is Unconstitutional and Judge rules Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional and Federal judge declares Pledge unconstitutional and Judge: School Pledge Is Unconstitutional. T…
8:23 pm [ Quote ]
I don’t really care if they take god out of the pledge. I do care however that all citizens should pledge allegiance to the flag /country. Faith in god ,at the least, is what you have when everything seems hopeless. I would guess that even atheists have this faith whether they choose to acknowledge it or not.
10:36 pm [ Quote ]
Judge: School Pledge Of Allegiance Is Unconstitutional
These days everything is political and a federal judge’s ruling that reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools unconstitutional will most certainly mean one…
11:10 pm [ Quote ]
You know, this whole discussion brings up a very interesting point.
Now, I don’t mind patriotism at all. I have to say this as a disclaimer before I say this:
Why say the pledge at all? In a country where we are so wrapped up about being allowed to make our own decisions (like supporting or not supporting the president) why are we doing this so early on?
And, because this really doesn’t apply to anyone over the age of 18, shouldn’t our children be able to decide whether or not they support our country and the decisions it makes? People would have to take it into their own hands to discover what they really believe in. That would = a more educated population.
It conveys a nice idea, liberty, justice for everyone, indivisible, and so on. I’m all about people making their own decisions. Maybe it’s because we instill blind patriotism to children that they never grow up and understand that every action made by a governmental body might not be correct and fair.
Take religion for example. Children are blind followers of religion. Yes, their parents believe it’s right, but shouldn’t they be given their options? If, after examining your options, you believe that Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam.. what have you is the right thing, then congratulations, you have made your own choice.
Either way, I’m all for religion, great, awesome. But choosing not to stand up when you’re a child and you don’t even know what you’re saying.. it’s just not even conceivable. That opens the kid up to being called out or separated for no good reason. I don’t understand what the big deal is about saying it without god. Nobody is saying whether or not god exists, they’re just making the pledge more about the country itself.
12:01 am [ Quote ]
[...] Well, it’s officially a pond now. At least, it’s a pond inasmuch as it is a hole with water in it, hehe… I spent what time I had free this afternoon working on said pond and not doing too much catching up or making my rounds in the blogosphere, so no posts of interest today other than this one. There wasn’t much going on in the news anyway. President Bush had to go to the bathroom and was caught writing a dirty note (or so it seems, turns out it was a fake), John Roberts continues to amaze and awe in his Senate confirmation hearings, Delta’s going bankrupt, and some nut case on the 9th circuit ruled the Pledge of Allegiance “unconstitutional”. Normally, that last story would be a headline, but the reality is that by the time it gets to the Supreme Court next year, Bush will have Roberts and an O’Connor replacement at the very least and there’s no way that the Supreme Court will uphold the 9th Circuit lunacy. So, there’s not a whole lot going on. The cool water in the pond sounded so inviting anyway [...]
12:32 am [ Quote ]
I don’t believe in Athiests. Does that make me a a-athiest?
2:13 am [ Quote ]
Kevin, I’m not sure how this can be any clearer:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
To name God as keeper of the nation (“one nation, under God”) certainly establishes religion. Or do you think there’s a non-religious “God” somewhere?
Or, perhaps you are interpreting “establishment” to mean a particular place or way that religion is exercised? That’s what you seem to imply by enumerating a few specific religious denominations. However, you only enumerated sects of a specific (and, world-wide, a minority) branch of religious thinking – Christianity. It’s accurate to say that many of the world’s other religions don’t rely on a God, or certainly not the God in the pledge. So, even by your “establishment” definition, naming a God in the pledge respects only certain specific religions. And, by doing so, runs afoul of the constitution.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
2:30 am [ Quote ]
Liberals for Smaller Government?
Yesterday, I blasted the judge who agreed with Michael Newdow in that the pledge doesn’t keep schools “free from a coercive requirement to affirm God.” My actions were noticed by one liberal who thinks that keeping the pledge of allegiance…
10:22 am [ Quote ]
Sometimes, A Pledge Is Just A Pledge
Jesus H. Christ, the pledge ruling. Excuse me. Nonsectarian civic Jesus H. Christ, the pledge ruling. A federal judge declared the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools unconstitutional Wednesday, a decision that could put the divisive…
10:48 am [ Quote ]
What, pray tell, do the other 13.6% of Americans believe in?
Quick, someone call L. Ron Hubbard…
10:56 am [ Quote ]
The Pledge Is Unconstitutional
We have reached a point where groups of Americans who are out of the mainstream and account for a miniscule percentage of the population have gained the ability to game the entire system by appealing to an even more infinitesimal minority, the federa…
12:05 pm [ Quote ]
[...] That’s how I feel, there’s a lotta people that feel much more strongly than I do. Some others people covering: Danny Carlton, Part-Time Pundit, L.T. Smash, Conservative Thinking, Outside The Beltway, Mark in Mexico, JunkYardBlog, and The Political Teen. [...]
12:05 pm [ Quote ]
How’s this for a contratian proposition:
I do believe in God, and consider myself a Christian. But I have always felt uncomfortable with the pledge. Why? In my readings of the old testament, I find that government was a punishment by God to the Israelites for asking for a king. God just ignored the request for a king (I think 3 times).
To me, placing this in the pledge was a rejection of the God of all mankind. It is also a rejection of the beliefs of the founding fathers as seen in the declaration of independence. It is not government that derives from the creator, but from us, we owe our obedience to god separately. The entire pledge as it has been repeatedly altered seems rather pagan to me, and fits in nicely as we see “Christian” leaders reject the teachings of Christ concerning forgiveness and judgment each day. To me, this modern “majority” religion is just another aspect of the Pharisees, and should be opposed by those who keep the true faith.
It’s not just atheists who have a problem with public prayer, it was also the Son of Man.
12:13 pm [ Quote ]
The mirror is too cruel to face
Rather than discuss the merits of yesterday’s court ruling from U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton declaring that “under God” doesn’t leave students “free from a coercive requirement to affirm God,” I want to highlight an interesting reaction t…
2:44 pm [ Quote ]
ewb, you can’t make it any clearer, because the constitution doesnt make it any clearer. As I said before, I believe “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” means no special respect for Catholicism over Judaism, no special treatement of Baptists over Muslims.
Do you understand? The catholic church is a religious establishment. The pentacost church is a religious establishment. If I’m right, it’s ok to spaek about a generic god, just not a god from a certain religious sect. This seems to be the only possible interpretation of the first amendment. Otherwise, prayer in school would have been banned in 1792, instead of 1961. Would our founding fathers have written a constitution and then allowed it’s rules to immediately be broken? The short answer is: No.
As an athiest, I really don’t have a dog in this race. It’s the tyranny of the minority thing that really bugs me, as I said in my earlier post.
To be honest, I’m only ‘mostly’ an athiest. I got shot in the arm 5 years ago and became agnostic until it healed
2:51 pm [ Quote ]
Hah! until today, I did not know how to spell ‘atheist’!
2:57 am [ Quote ]
I am also an atheist, but a very conservative one, and so find the right (my right!) continually trying to sneak some religion (any religion) into the “public square” it’s quite upsetting. Railing against judicial activism and judges-as-legislators, as the right rightfully does, while simultaneously railing against judges strictly interpreting the Constitution’s clear separation of church and state is, at best, incoherent. Certainly it is inconsistent, and it is certainly illogical.
I can, howver, appreciate that “clear” does not accurately describe the first amendment’s establishment clause, as evidenced by the fact that there are multiple tests used by the Court to measure it, including the Lemon test (and redux), the Coercion test, the Endorsement test, and (now) the neutrality test.
I think the pledge, delivered by children as instructed by teachers as directed by adminsitrators by virtue of laws involving government funding of public education (and, remember, the first amendment says “NO law”), runs afoul of the Endorsement test, as enunciated by Justice O’Connor in 1984:
“’The Establishment Clause prohibits government from making adherence to a religion relevant in any way to a person’s standing in the political community.’ Her fundamental concern was whether the particular government action conveys ‘a message to non-adherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community.’”
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/rel_liberty/establishment/index.aspx
In the end, I don’t want government involved in anything involving religion. I don’t want it printing money stating “In God we Trust”, I don’t want it swearing in witnesses or presidents on bibles, and I don’t want it sanctioning the recitation of pledges evoking God.
I don’t want religion to go away. I don’t care what someone wants to worship or believe. But, there’s a place for religion, and it’s called the home, the church, the synagogue, the mosque, the whatever. It’s not in the institutions erected, funded, and controlled by government.
So why does the right persist in trying to inject it into government? They certainly wouldn’t stand by and allow government to be injected into religion. Unless, of course, it’s to their benefit, as it is when they exempt places of religion from paying property taxes, which I find to be insane, as it requires government to “establish” the validity of a religion in the first place.
Oh, man, the insanity is overwhelming sometimes.
3:02 am [ Quote ]
By the way, in case anyone doubts whether government (more specifically, the right and/or conservatives) are constantly trying to sneak religion into the public square, ask yourself: Why has the Court had to develop so many tests with which to measure laws against the establishment clause? No doubt it’s because they’ve come face to face with so many damned attempts by righteous legislators trying to circumvent it.
1:41 pm [ Quote ]
Well said! I understand your position very well now. I still have to disagree though :(. I do not often agree with Justice O’Connor’s writings/opinions, and this one is no exception.
It seems utterly intolerant to deny such minor mention of a god by the government. I simply can’t see the downside to leaving god in government where he is already (courts, money, pledge), and not adding more.
4:08 pm [ Quote ]
The pledge of allegiance is unAmerican from top to bottom.
Am I a liberal? No.
Am I an atheist? No.
Am I anti-liberal, and anti-atheist? Yes.
The pledge was written by a socialist. I don’t pledge my allegiance to any flag, I don’t believe any political unit should be considered “indivisible” (an unAmerican concept), and I nowhere in the Constitution are the United States referred to as “one nation.”
4:10 pm [ Quote ]
I should point out that “under God” makes a hell of a lot more sense, and is much more consistent with the founder’s written statements, than “indivisible” or “one nation.”
STATES ARE NATIONS. The United States is a union of sovereign States.
4:12 pm [ Quote ]
“No one forces the kids to SAY the Pledge. They can stand quietly while the others do.”
Nonsense. I was coerced many times as a child to recite the pledge.
11:47 pm [ Quote ]
Wow…conservatives never cease to amaze me. You all have such simple minds. Need we remind ourselves that the Constitution of the United States of America is the supreme law of the land. This means that NOTHING can change the laws written in the Constitution unless it is amended. No court may rule against the Constitution, either. This means that it does not matter that atheists make up only .4% of the American population. The Constitution states that there is a separation of church and state in public schools. Why can’t you understand that this means “God”, “Jesus”, “Allah”, etc. etc. cannot be worshiped or praised in a public setting? You conservatives need to check your facts. The America we love so much and its Constitution is under attack, and we must fight to protect it at all costs.
11:39 am [ Quote ]
discount priced Large Dog Door
Federal Judge Rules Pl…